Serving Bread

Comment from danielle August 13, 2008 at 7:57 pm

although there are a million and one things i could say about my beef with capitalism, one of the most decisive factors about capitalism’s inherent opposition to following jesus is that one of the fundamental, inextricable tenets of capitalism is private property. yet in christian life and in christian community there should be none. all is gods to share with equity and justice.

and in regards to bill gates, his “creative capitalism” still doesn’t work. his foundation that offers vaccines to underdeveloped countries maintains its capital(money) by investing in companies that are hurting the very communities he tries to help. the l.a. times did an excellent investigation of this(http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,4205044,full.story) this exemplifies the inherent contradictions of “well-meaning” capitalism…generating a profit almost always requires the exploitation of people or of the environment. as paulo friere so aptly states: “In order to have the continued opportunity to express their ‘generosity,’ the oppressors must perpetuate injustice as well. An unjust social order is the permanent fount of this ‘generosity,’ which is nourished by death, despair, and poverty [...] True generosity consists precisely in fighting to destroy the causes which nourish false charity”

**i highly recommend marx’s essay on estranged labor, which talks about the spiritual and social effects of private property

Comment from Eddy E August 14, 2008 at 11:04 am

Danielle, thanks for stopping by and following along with the conversation. You are right in what it feels like too many cases, capitalism has been used in a way to hurt communities and people. The practice continues and often laws and regulations encourage such behavior.

However, I don’t think capitalism is as opposed to following Jesus as any other economic system. In fact, I don’t think that any economic system comes even close to what God intends for humanity. If on a scale of 1 to 100, 100 being perfection and 1 being the epitome of imperfection, I would argue that all economic systems fall closer to 1 than they do to 100. God’s redemption of all things will also be that of economic systems that crush and manipulate the poor.

I do value the radical generosity that scripture illustrates, but I don’t quite see an admonition against private property in scripture. I would go so far to argue that I don’t think that you can really have radical generosity without the values for private property. (In other words, it’s hard to be generous with public goods)

As others have shown, capitalism can be focused to empower the poor and care for the needy. But as I mentioned in my post, the jury is still out on whether capitalism will go through reforms that would make it normal and expected that consumers and producers make a difference in the poverty around us.

Comment from Tyler Watson August 14, 2008 at 2:49 pm

I think the danger is in seeing capitalism as a monolithic system, just as it is incorrect to think of Christianity as monolithic. There are various traditions within Christianity that differ quite a bit from each other when viewed from the inside, but from the outside, they look similar because of the common beliefs (e.g., the Trinity, the Bible as Scripture, etc.). Similarly, I think one can see traditions within capitalism. One can surely critique capitalism’s basic and shared values, but it’s a mistake to use criticisms of Friedmanism against Greenblatt.

I agree with much of Eddy’s assessment regarding private property in the Bible. I see the Bible argue that all the world and therefore, all property is ultimately God’s. But I do not see an abolition of private property. I think Eddy rightly defends generosity as holding an assumption of ownership. Similarly, Exodus 20.15 “You shall not steal,” seems to assume private ownership. If everything belongs to everyone else in the community, how can one steal or refrain from it?

Comment from Rick Thrasher August 15, 2008 at 10:27 pm

May I suggest a couple of Biblically sound books that discuss ideas relevant to this topic. The first is by Dr. Wayne Grudem, professor of Theology at Phoenix Seminary, and is called “Business for the Glory of God: The Bible’s Teaching on the Moral Goodness of Business.” Dr. Grudem explores Old and New Testament passages that show God’s clear intention that his people use business for His glory, but that we can also corrupt business, and use it for our glory (as humans do for every other one of God’s gifts to us).

The second is called “God is at Work: Transforming People and Nations Through Business” by entrepreneur and businessman Ken Eldred. Ken describes a thoroughly Biblical approach to business. Ken’s book is the best book I’ve seen so far in the area of Business as Missions, a growing movement of God to use business as a way to build the economic base of the poorest communities, reach the least-reached for Christ, and provide employment and a reasonable financial return for investors.

I hope both books help you and your readers see that God has always used business to move Hs kingdom forward and to provide for His people. After all Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Nehiamiah, Jesus, Peter, John, Paul, and countless others were business people. If God thought business was good enough for these incredible people of faith, whoa re we to argue?

Thanks! Grace and peace- Rick

Comment from danielle August 15, 2008 at 11:02 pm

i really liked reading both responses, since i always enjoy thinking critically about this topic (since my major was international development studies and i’ve studied capitalism’s effects in the “underdeveloped” world pretty extensively)… so thank you for proposing and engaging in this topic…here are my thoughts about your responses, although i wont drag it out into a debate or something after this post

i agree that you, tyler, that you cannot look at capitalism as a monolithic system, which is why i did not critique the horrific friedmanism of today, but instead focused on the common denominator of every form of capitalism, private property, and its inherent qualities.

and yes eddy i agree that there have been flaws in many man-made economic systems, but there are distinct variations in the degree to which certain economic systems exploit the environment and create social stratification. hunter-gathering economic systems were extremely benign to creation and created societies with extremely little social stratification. agricultural societies became more unjust as people were able to accumulate wealth because of sedentary lifestyles. stalin and mao’s communism (which are nothing like marx’s communism) allowed government elites to have priority over resources, crushing the poor. and friedman and reagan’s capitalism allows every natural and human resource to be exploited in the name of “economic growth”. although every economic system has flaws, some are significantly more flawed in the way the break shalom between god and man; man and man; and man and nature.

i do see plenty of support for the abolition of private property in the bible. although, let me clarify…im not advocating the state to control and distribute all resources, i’m talking about the idea of private property and personal ownership in the lives of followers of jesus. i see it everywhere from jesus being a homeless wanderer, to “love your neighbor as yourself,” to the first church in acts, where needs of others become paramount, and even your life is not your own. also, i see the bible more as descriptive than prescriptive (although different sections are comprised of more or less of the two), and just because the bible depicts people owning things does not mean that god approves of it. likewise, when exodus says “you shall not steal,” it is a law that was made in regards to its historical context, in which private property already existed. also, you do not have to own something in order for it to be stolen. i dont own much carbon, but when my carbon footprint exceeds 1/6billion, i am using more than my share of the earth’s resources, and thereby stealing from others. also…in luke, one of jesus’ first teachings is “the man with 2 tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.” everything i have becomes that of those who have not…and just because i had it in the first place does not mean i am being generous by giving it away…rather, i am doing justice by giving it back to the person who should have had it in the first place.

eddy, that’s where i really disagree with your assessment of generosity in the bible…and it’s what i was trying to show with the paulo fiere quote. we don’t want a social order that spawns 3 billion impoverished people, to whom we get to be “generous.” true generosity is fighting to create a social order in which superficial generosity does not need to take place. (and of course i’m not talking about generosity like baking someone cookies or something )

anyways, those are my thoughts, and i appreciate the dialogue and eddy, just to let you know, i now cringe at my ignorance of our talk about affirmative action a few years ago…that was pre-laup, pre-knowing a god that cares about justice, pre-everything haha… i’m glad you got to witness my horrible foolishness though, so that you might be encouraged by my passion for justice now

Comment from Eddy E August 16, 2008 at 8:14 am

#Rick: Thanks for the book plugs. I’m familiar with Grudem–mostly his theology and position on women in leadership and male/female relationships. I don’t buy his arguments, though I can attest he is thoughtful. I don’t know much about Eldred.

#Danielle: Thanks for your response and thoughts. It’s helpful to have these kinds of conversations to continue to challenge one another (and especially other believers) on how to think about how our economic system works, how it may benefit us justly or unjustly and what our response should be to those benefits and costs… And isn’t it nice that we are all works in progress? If you and I had gone to high school together, we would have had much in common….

Comment from Tyler Watson August 20, 2008 at 11:44 am

“just because the bible depicts people owning things does not mean that god approves of it. likewise, when exodus says ‘you shall not steal,’ it is a law that was made in regards to its historical context, in which private property already existed.”

Danielle, I don’t know, but we may have different views of the Bible and so I want to respect your means of interpretation while we discuss these matters. I take great care to understand the context — literary, theological, and historical — of biblical passages. If you are saying that the ten commandments were merely contextual laws, I must disagree with you. Perhaps only this one commandment is now irrelevant (maybe the commandment against coveting is also irrelevant now that private property does not exist in the Church). But if this one is irrelevant, why not the others? Were they not contextual as well, speaking to a people in a specific time and place? Can we cheat on our spouses, freely make idols, shame our parents, and neglect the Sabbath?

I’m sorry, but stealing does connote ownership, or a right to unique access to goods or resources. Your own language demonstrates this when you write, “i am using more than my share of the earth’s resources, and thereby stealing from others.” Why would you or anyone else have a unique, or private, share of resources? What does it mean to “have” a tunic in an understanding that private property does not exist?

In defending private property, please do not hear that I defend greed or hoarding or any of the other sins we commit with regard to goods and resources. I want to say, I agree with you deeply that the Bible pushes us towards a just generosity that does not foster dependence, but elevates the one with less. I do not see private property and justice as opposed to each other. The two tunics quotation is a great example. Basil the Great said, “The bread which you do not use is the bread of the hungry; the garment hanging in your wardrobe is the garment of him who is naked; the shoes that you do not wear are the shoes of the one who is barefoot; the money that you keep locked away is the money of the poor; the acts of charity that you do not perform are so many injustices that you commit.”